Topic: Weld the diff?

I know that someone had to have tried this in Lemons.

I know in the off road world, the "loncoln locker" is a popular "budget engineered" way to add traction quick and cheap,

My question is, how many people have tried it for Lemons?

Do you think our car would become a tail happy spin machine. or would it have a hard time overwhelming the tires with its paltry 150hp. ( an optimistic estimate)  I know that the rear on our merkur is notoriously weak, and I figure that welding most of the internal moving parts together in to one boogered-up chunck of pot metal might add strength.  I'm aware of the additional tire wear that would come with it, and the low speed steering issues, and I think we can live with that.

any opinions?

The Roto-Racer '89 Merkur:  If it ain't rusting, It ain't racing.

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Re: Weld the diff?

Yea, it will be a tail happy black flag magnet.

Unless you have a team full of pro rally drivers don't do it.

Re: Weld the diff?

I did it on my old rallycross XR4.

It was fine for what I was doing, 5-10 minutes of flogging it in first and second gear. But the CV joint bolts would loosen up quickly, which is why I HAVEN'T tried it on the Lemons car. Still trying to figure out a way to get some more traction for the uphill in the Merkurian Falcon at NHMS.

4 (edited by gm2 2013-01-22 08:35 AM)

Re: Weld the diff?

We had the opposite effect when we welded the diff in our Merc.  Car went from being a drift-happy, 1-wheel-burnouting, black-flag attracting mess to being quite a bit more controllable and extremely predictable.  I think our tire wear might have actually improved since we weren't roasting the inside wheel anymore.

One thing to note, if your car breaks down alot (like ours)  it sucks a whole lot to push it around paddock.

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5 (edited by Drdanteiii 2013-01-22 08:44 AM)

Re: Weld the diff?

fiasco wrote:

I did it on my old rallycross XR4.

It was fine for what I was doing, 5-10 minutes of flogging it in first and second gear. But the CV joint bolts would loosen up quickly, which is why I HAVEN'T tried it on the Lemons car. Still trying to figure out a way to get some more traction for the uphill in the Merkurian Falcon at NHMS.


That's exactly the problem we were having.  Short of a spendy diff from mc2racing, there aren't alot of options.

[img]We had the opposite effect when we welded the diff in our Merc.  Car went from being a drift-happy, 1-wheel-burnouting, black-flag attracting mess to being quite a bit more controllable and extremely predictable.  I think our tire wear might have actually improved since we weren't roasting the inside wheel anymore.

One thing to note, if your car breaks down alot (like ours)  it sucks a whole lot to push it around paddock.[/img]

Thanks for the input, like fiasco said above, we had a hard time not burning the inside tire coming out of some of the corners, and I wasnt sure if having the traction of two tires would help it bite better, or if then I would jsut have two tires burning rubber and losing traction.

The Roto-Racer '89 Merkur:  If it ain't rusting, It ain't racing.

'14 Real Hoopties of NJ: Judges Choice

Re: Weld the diff?

We welded the diff in our stock class SCORE truck... Worked great. Never seen a spooled road racer tho. I think it would depend on the what tracks you are running. I would also think most tracks we run here on the Westside would fine.

_______________
#3 IROC MAIDEN

Re: Weld the diff?

You should do it.  For no other reason than to entertain us.  Besides, it will make it feel more like a race car when you're slow driving the paddocks and making sharp turns.

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Re: Weld the diff?

I think the Bert One Volvo is running a welded diff...if my memory serves...and they like it. I'd be less worried about doing it with a live axle.

Oh, I did run the same rallycross XR4 with the welded diff and a melted wheel-weight spacesaver welded in the back at an ice race. It was touchy on ice, but it worked. You couldn't pussyfoot it into a turn or you'd understeer. If you tried to yield Thor's Hammer with too much gusto in your Scandanhoovian Flicks, you went careening into the snow backward.

When I took my street XR4 out yesterday (the second time it's been on the road in the winter since 1990) to take my Subaru's heads to the machine shop (blown head gaskets, on a EJ25? Never.....) I had a bear of a time turning it around in the snow, even with a cheatonium Euro limited slip. Falken 512s don't like the cold!

Dante, if I come up with a low-buck way to do a diff, I'll let you know. The best thing I've seen is a Supra setup, but that will involve buying or fabbing mounting brackets, propshaft adapter, and axle adapters, so unless you fab those yourself, it's going to be budget busting. There may be some Bee Emm Double Ewwwwws that could donate a pumpkin and not need the axle adapters, but I haven't researched it enough.

9 (edited by Spinnetti 2013-01-22 10:47 AM)

Re: Weld the diff?

just put in a second handbrake and brake the wheels independently wink

If you like broken axles, welded diff is a great way to do it, but that's just speaking from experience wink

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Re: Weld the diff?

Just be sure to do it this way:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_dsuvwqZD4rk/SaWL6X8PvSI/AAAAAAAAA3g/XMyhgV4-4vc/s400/Welded-Differential.jpg

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Re: Weld the diff?

fiasco wrote:

I think the Bert One Volvo is running a welded diff...if my memory serves...and they like it. I'd be less worried about doing it with a live axle

they are. We helped push them out of the garage and push start them in october. It was entertaining watching the inside wheel skipping.

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Re: Weld the diff?

Completely different chassis, but similar theory: To save cost and machining time, we used a spool on a FSAE car built for my senior design project. It actually worked surprisingly well, but the car had to be driven at 80% or more on tight corners to ensure enough weight transfer to let the inside tire slip. For instance, I could navigate the hair pins with the car, but another driver with less seat time kept understeering and plowing cones. That said, on anything but a hairpin, I think any detrimental effects of the spool was negligible.

Pushing it through the pits sucked.

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13 (edited by DelinquentRacer 2013-01-22 12:38 PM)

Re: Weld the diff?

Maxzillian wrote:

Pushing it through the pits sucked.

ABSOLUTELY SUCKS sooo many ways when pushing

I drove the V8olvo at Sears last March . Saturday saw A LOT of rain. I really thought that the welded diff was going to be a nightmare to drive in the rain. To my surprise I had great traction out of the corners. even the really tight Turn 7 and Turn 9 chicane  I also used the welded diff to get the car straight out of the Turn 11 hairpin.

My 2¢ (I also drive a locker on the street)
- The car will push when you are off throttle.
- The traction will be extraordinary when on throttle.
- If you have an unbalanced car the welded diff will make it worse.
- Use only on solid axle RWD cars.

DO IT. What's the worst that can happen?
http://www.roadie.org/axle31.jpg
http://mgaguru.com/abused/pics/diff_1.jpg
http://www.ford-trucks.com/user_gallery/tmp/540/54093.520.390
http://www.dancoracing.com/ODS_5_12_07/broken_Axle.jpg
http://mightymo.org/public_html/images/Projects/D41-2%20AxleReplacement/BrokenAxles.jpg
http://alexwhitcomb.squarespace.com/picture/5.1.11%20637.jpg?pictureId=9680729&asGalleryImage=true&__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=1305229331311
http://iakobou.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/halfshaft_removal3a.jpg

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Re: Weld the diff?

this is the only way that takes care of _all_ wheel spin issues.




RobL wrote:

Just be sure to do it this way:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_dsuvwqZD4rk/SaWL6X8PvSI/AAAAAAAAA3g/XMyhgV4-4vc/s400/Welded-Differential.jpg

Re: Weld the diff?

I'm well aware of the drawbacks in the low speed steering department.  My 72 cj5 is locked front and rear, making hte steering wheel just a suggestion instead of a command.

Also in the same vehicle, I'm not stranger to broken axles, spider gears, and differential cases.

I'd be a lot more likely to do it if it were a solid rear axle, but the Euro-ford (like euro Disney, but euro ford is more of a mickey mouse operation) IRS doesnt exactly scream beef when you look closely.


Andrew(fiasco),
   I know on the MC2 website, their diff options are supposedly based on a GM 10-bolt (7.5") differential carrier.  I wonder if we could grab a gov-lock out of a camaro or 1/2ton truck and retro fit it into the merkur housing.  Not that the gov-bomb is know for its reliability either, but a junk yard option from a full size pickup just feels so much more lemon-y.


RobL wrote:

Just be sure to do it this way:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_dsuvwqZD4rk/SaWL6X8PvSI/AAAAAAAAA3g/XMyhgV4-4vc/s400/Welded-Differential.jpg


I'd do that, but my welds aren't enywhere near that nice, lol.

The Roto-Racer '89 Merkur:  If it ain't rusting, It ain't racing.

'14 Real Hoopties of NJ: Judges Choice

Re: Weld the diff?

Just switch over to the entire solid axle out of a Mustang, use leaf springs for maximum Lemonness

Constructor/Owner/Driver - Billy Beer Ford Futura

17 (edited by stupid_but_tough 2013-01-23 05:23 AM)

Re: Weld the diff?

I bought a mini-spool for our 7.5" GM rear end, haven't tried it out yet. It replaces the spider gears with solid chunks of metal. The great part is, you can remove it if it breaks or you don't like the way the car handles

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/1977-98-G … 31915.html

http://static.speedwaymotors.com/RS/SR/Product/91048603_R.jpg

The mini-spool (gold) goes inside of ring gear carrier, replacing the spider gears

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4035/4697342278_c0e60ec6b1_b.jpg

Here is a forum post about adapting a Trans-Am LSD to a Merkur IRS housing

http://www.shoforum.com/showthread.php?t=93018

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v445/lgp0000/GM%20LSD/DSC08711.jpg

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Re: Weld the diff?

RobL wrote:

Just be sure to do it this way:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_dsuvwqZD4rk/SaWL6X8PvSI/AAAAAAAAA3g/XMyhgV4-4vc/s400/Welded-Differential.jpg


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Re: Weld the diff?

Parkwod60 wrote:

Just switch over to the entire solid axle out of a Mustang, use leaf springs for maximum Lemonness


This!  Get rid of the IRS and go stick axle! Weld it up and your done.  I AX an old Mercury Capri with a locked rear end and we use race slicks and not street tires. I have a friend with a Pinto and we welded up the 8 inch rear in his too.  The way to drive the car is to brake in a straight line, turn in late and then power out. This reduced the tendency for the car to push on corner exit. What you don't want is to enter the corner to fast, then it will just want to plow/push. With street tires you could also learn to "toss" the car into the turn "dirt track" style and scrub off speed but for an endurance car that's not what you want to do.

Re: Weld the diff?

At the recommendation of the Bertone Volvo team, we locked up the stick axle at the back of the boat.  We had a very hard time putting the power down at NJMP with our 2.73 gears and open diff.  At Summit, we had a locked diff and better sea bars front and rear and the difference was amazing.   We were still one of the slowest cars of there, but the balance of the car was totally different.   At NH, that continued, but it felt a little loose there, but very easy to control and no problem pitting the power down.  We were second in C both of those races. 

We are now working on finding a cheap 3.42 to swap in, and we will weld it again.  Of note, we run 245 width star specs

Chris from 3 Pedal Mafia

Re: Weld the diff?

I think you could accomplish more with air pressure adjustments and spring rates.   for cars properly adjusted the air pressure will be different and all the tires as the spring rates also. the car only has 2 ends work on the one hand it doesn't work. make one change at a time, keep track of what you're doing, all cars will be different sort works in one car won't work in the other one.

Re: Weld the diff?

martyfermer wrote:

I think you could accomplish more with air pressure adjustments and spring rates.   for cars properly adjusted the air pressure will be different and all the tires as the spring rates also. the car only has 2 ends work on the one hand it doesn't work. make one change at a time, keep track of what you're doing, all cars will be different sort works in one car won't work in the other one.

Either Marty Fermer is drunk when he posted this, or a spammer is getting warmed up here, and doesn't actually speak any english.

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Re: Weld the diff?

martyfermer wrote:

I think you could accomplish more with air pressure adjustments and spring rates.   for cars properly adjusted the air pressure will be different and all the tires as the spring rates also. the car only has 2 ends work on the one hand it doesn't work. make one change at a time, keep track of what you're doing, all cars will be different sort works in one car won't work in the other one.


Yes he should work tire pressures.If put more air in left front than in right right rear. Car will act like posi.

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Re: Weld the diff?

What if he puts more in the wrong right rear?

Constructor/Owner/Driver - Billy Beer Ford Futura

Re: Weld the diff?

That's all bunk.  He needs to put more air into the spare tire. 
:-)
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