Art's the Thing; Ishmael Reed - April 1984

I. See what. You. Do. Ishmael Reed is a prolific writer author of such a claim novel Thad's freelance. Paul there is yellow back radio down flight to Canada among others. He is the publisher poet editor of anthologies. He most recently an independent video producer. In short he is a literary figure and we welcome him to art. The thing I read somewhere that you wrote something of the sort my writing has made me a better man. How you got to because you spent a lot of time alone you don't go up in streets and get into trouble. It's a lot of distraction. And if you're writing you know you don't get involved in distractions you have to

concentrate on what you're doing. You look up look at what you're doing. So that's why I feel that way where you get the inspiration for your writing. There's such a broad spectrum of history involved and so many of your works. Well I use American history a lot of stuff based upon American history. For example the most visible one I guess was my flight to Canada which is an album world less centered around civil war and the post-Civil War period and the Hollaback radio which is a Western which is still in print. All those books still in print. A first novel for adults Paulsboro is published 1967 I still it from the holodeck radio program was about the West and what I wanted to do was do a take off a parody of a book that's really a satire. Well you know of all the films westerns I've seen in the literature I've read about the West that's why I call it the yellow back. The whole back was a kind of book that was written by doods who went to the west coast Herald Tribune the newspaper like that and what they did was to exaggerate the antics of the cowboys and Cowboys read these

books which you could buy for a dime and imitate that stuff. And so we exaggerated suddenly we tried to model for John Wayne and all those people come out the back for him. You've done a lot of writing for all of writing. Approaching what you call it a nationalist Thetic of sorts. You talk about developing a true American art form. I think we're on the way to doing that more so probably in American history in the past. I'm not the only one to talk about this has been an issue in American history all the way back in the Daniel Hawthorne was upset because American publishers are publishing British authors and out of publishing American authors. What are you coming to talk about today where we still have a kind of like Colonial idea about American culture. In what way. Well the New York Times book review for example which is the most powerful book review in the country important Englishman Anthony Burgess to tell them what the best 50 books of the century were. There was no notion of getting an American to give his opinions about that. So what we have been suffering from is a

domination of European intellectual ideas and we feel I feel a lot of other people feel that it's time that American culture culture you know sit on its own two feet. American culture is recognized all the world it seems sometimes everywhere but here. How do you respond to those who say that this is very logical given the English influence during the colonial days of our founding and that kind of fought a war for independence I guess didn't extend the culture but I think there should be a cultural as well as political independence because many of us do not have ancestors who came from England. We might have asked as Afro-Americans from Mount Everest the ancestors who originated in Ireland but not England. And I feel that American culture has a identity of its own. We have native American culture Chicano or Mexican-American an Asian-American culture is come all together. You know they spell American culture that's what I'm interested in. This is where I live. I don't live in Europe and this is my training my experience my background so I write about the subject matter.

You write about American Express and all of that. Yes. I mentioned in the introduction but you're also a publisher and I know that you've done a lot to foster the growth and development particularly of other young black writers. We have been publishing books since 1973 as a matter of fact last year was the 10th anniversary of our business. They say if you get beyond five years you stay I think we're here to stay. We're in the black. No pun intended. We have the liabilities and we published about two books a year which according to McDowell who knows about these things. You wrote an article in The Times about it. It's about average for a price our size. We publish not only after American writers we publish American Europeans I have a book press now at the printers by a writer named Carol visé who's American European has been writing for about three years in this country does not have a large reputation but who's next and writer. We published a European American male for example James Girard who I ran into in Lawrence Kansas and one of my trips I read a manuscript of his I liked it so much and published it. And now he's being published by

Penthouse and magazines like that. So I think that we publish a variety of people from different backgrounds. We were the first press to publish for example an American born Chinese males book Home-Based by Sean Wong. We won two awards with that Pacific Northwest booksellers award Governor of the state of Washington governors ward and we also marketed that book in on China. Does that I have two part question that does that then open the door for the artist as well as give him. No more publicity for your. Oh certainly I think it gives. We've launched a lot of writers that were unheard of when we began publishing and for example Native American writers we have huge reputation as one of the writers was Pulp was received a MacArthur MacArthur Genius Award. She's very well-known now. These these are writers going to big bigger publishers and we don't mind that we don't try to own them. We published their first book. You see yourself just finished opening regenerating the thing regenerate things because we have we have a vision

and our vision is that the full strength of American culture has not been explored because the intellectuals who are promoted by the media are actually American born Europeans. And when you go to France I'm going to go to England. They bowed out of those things. For example the premier of France just had a conference last year. He invited American intellectuals from New York to attend that conference and they praised French culture and bemoaned the lack of American culture. Well they don't realize that there is a strong American culture. You come out here west of the Hudson you come out of Manhattan you go to the Midwest you go to the west you go to south. There are vital cultures in all these places. You might find more dancers for example in Louisville now than New York you'll find great painting in Seattle Houston Texas great museums in Atlanta. So I feel that American culture has become a more decentralized and you might find talent or genius anywhere. You know what I might find somebody reading know magazine in

Memphis Tennessee as I did last night. Pan Otherwise Americans don't tend to elevate their audience at all. They haven't if they don't hear them in the sense that Europeans too. Well I don't know if they should be revered or not. I don't know a lot of artists I wouldn't revere I wouldn't want anybody to revere me. I live in a working class neighborhood. All my neighbors care about is where I keep my lawn up if I can I hire somebody for left town so that was getting like a jungle. I mean you lose points for that. It's not what you are. So I've lived right in the neighborhood and I've been conspicuous and I live in a working class area in Oakland California. So I'd rather be treated that way than to be lionized. And I think God has gotten away with we can say they've gotten away with murder somebody just because he's a good writer you know a bunch intellectuals get together get him out of jail. I think that you know the case I'm talking about because they feel that writers or somebody with artistic talent does not have the kind of does not have to obey the rules that the rest of us have to obey. So I feel Americans are

correct on that but that writers and artists or whatever should be treated this way. Ordinary people are treated not praises they are Europe. Now when you go to Europe they treat American Idols like rock stars over there I go to Paris. People turn up and you know be treated very well for your wine and dine. They have a different attitude. It's a different civilization. But I think we have our own civilization which was begun by ordinary people we have no aristocracy. So I think if artists are treated as you know are not praised or held on a pedestal that's fine with me. Do you see yourself as a part of the mainstream of contemporary American writing. I think American artists the mainstream everybody likes half-American I always say that everybody has a third heritage in this country. Everybody has an African heritage it's kind of everybody. They may have a European heritage they may have a. Name but you can see that that's one thing in common that we all have we all know Afro American music. We all know Afro-American dance. You're saying it's that pervasive and it's it's it's one of the universal

cultures I would call it a universal subculture if there could be such a thing because we've been sold a bill of goods that our culture is ethnic but our culture is multicultural. You can't think a you can't point to many half American people who do not have a Native American or European background. We're not view of this small history with my family and I talk to my cousins who are second generation. And when they talk about our ancestry they point to Irish people on both sides. We have native American ancestry. We come from Tennessee which was the seat of the Cherokee Nation. So I think if everybody ran this does not need American scholars tell me this is the 50 percent of African-American people have Native American background so we are them we are international people. We are multicultural people and we should be the ones who point to America as a multicultural society and not as an extension of Europe. If I can get back on my soapbox right. All right. Anya that's what does it take to do that.

I think some of the stuff that we're doing we try instead of just protesting and being bitter about all is we try to create an institution. Ten years ago we organized something called the before Columbus foundation. Everybody thought it was a joke. They began to refer to us the goodbye Columbus or started making puns and making fun of our name you know and we had a very serious purpose when we call ourselves before Columbus formation because we feel that American culture begins thousands years ago. I'm publishing the first Innuit or say Eskimo Eskimos derogatory term is being eaten as a raw flesh. The French gave these people that name. Those people have been in the North Pole and in Alaska for thousands of years and they have a literature they have a lot of bear stories. When I go to I call my company I read books we have a bear logo because Americans and Native Americans north west and the southwest with Bear personality. They give you your clan but they have stories that go back 10000 years. We have a great culture in Central America the Aztecs the Mayans. We have great cultures in this country every bit of American culture. So what we claim all of that we say there

was cultural vitality in this country before the arrival of Columbus. So this is a great civilization and we don't like to see it so short. And we say that it's merely European or it's this or that you know we we tell ourselves why I believe if we accept that faith is there and then I look at writers like yourself who talk about the difficulty of being a black poet today with the difficulty of being a Native American poet. The difficulty of finding a publishing outlet online of being accepted is mainstream. I think I think of white black red brown all anybody who writes a I feel like what I would call a serious book and a book that's not genre fiction is going to have difficulty the way publishing is now the way because of the aims of the publishers in the east but in the last 20 years we found a burgeoning of small presses and I think they've changed a picture and some of these small presses become established institutions. You talk about we have a we have about 100 presses out in California

and all publishing different novels and the poetry you find very little poetry being published by the publishers now. So that's where the small press come out of his mom and pop idea because I'm a populist and the only argument I have against free free enterprise is that it is constantly in the hands of the few. But free enterprise is a good thing. If I could say this I'm not a success. AT&T has competition. They're more courteous to the patrons. I never thought I'd see the day when somebody and AT&T would say you have a good day or thanks for your competition. Civilized people humbles people. Well we have argument is that there are too many monopolies and we'd like to change that. We like to change it in publishing. We'd like to change that in the media because we feel it's unhealthy but we all for free enterprise. As long as free enterprise is actually practiced when you talk about the media you would have branched out from your literary world and you conceived what black folk right through personal problem. Yes.

Why. Because I feel that I always hear these Afro-American playwrights complaining that nobody's going to come. Nobody come see my show. Nobody can see my place. I heard about that. I've listened to it for about 15 years and I decided that the way to do it is as well as say put the hey where to go can get at it. Don't send me take it to the people. So what we do is do television and we meet the people on the ground and they're acquainted with which is a soap opera. A lot of intellectuals are to sneer at the soap opera because again this is America for them and they feel it's vulgar or they feel is popular. This notion that everything becomes popular and it's no good. I feel stupid I mean Chopin was a great pianist but he's popular in his own time. Beethoven those are rock stars our old times. So saying that just because something is popular does not necessarily mean it's artistic worth. So what we're doing is going to the soap opera not trying to convince all these other guys do the same thing. I think I'm making headway. I'm getting some of the best from our playwrights we know maybe for creating soap opera scripts and going right into the living room instead of having somebody come to a theater where they have to pay $20 for a

ticket. You know isn't there a contradiction there. Since the soap opera typically is sort of a sensationalized compendium of everybody's problems you have Maff adultery math murder math and everything going on in soap operas like a Shakespeare in the Bible isn't a mirror. Hopefully of everyday life. Well I think it depends upon it depends upon the people who who are participating and who are creating it. We we're lucky enough in our soap opera to get some of the best people we got gone. It's a real artsy craftsy guy. He did good gotcha. Yes. Which won on Film Festival in 1972. We got more to composing music and you got to have some of that soundtrack. We play an excerpt he's composing music for I remember one day he's flying back cross-country you know. He had to work from nearby the San Francisco Symphony one day by New York Philharmonic the next day. He writes for IBM writing math so nobody can see that he's a slouch. We have a bit of a grocer who is just great. I mean Vertamae Grosvenor would make a great first lady who is I mean she just does everything.

She's a renaissance woman she's transparence everything she does she does a style and she is a South Carolinian in South Carolina. That's right. Well some of doing it. We have a water cut and we have a great deal of good talent. And all these people who are waiting for something to happen somebody to create a project that they could all feel proud of and that they all they could all love their creative energies and and that's how personal problems came about. But you feel that it is an accurate measure. I don't know if that's up to the public to decide. And I think that the reason we've gotten so far I feel are very encouraging all people from all different class middle class or people like myself work class all feel that this is probably an accurate as accurate view of African-American life. It's all of it's variety and all of its variety not just the hot dogs and be the filet mignon. You know the chateau Breo everything all of it. And it's a quality of work and that's the kind of response we've gotten so maybe we've hit upon something. But there's nobody else doing it so I mean who's to tell you look at that kind of a soap operas where the way Africans are presented on television it's like the same way there was in the 19th century you know the same

stereotypes and lot of people read so much on this I don't have to go into it but the same stereotypes pertain to the way they're depicted now as they were in the 19th century. You mentioned that with anything except that you set it up for OK in this scene that we're going to see these relatives have come to visit the Browns and they're not so ambitious. As a matter of fact the wife is cashing bad checks and her eyes was an heir of the will. And a lot of people have relatives like that. I mean they don't have to be black. People come and freeload off of you. And in this scene you'll see what happens to freeloaders and my. OK let's take a look. So. I am

all I am. I know I know I know. I see. You. Know.

When. You say that this particular soap opera has. Universal fame. I think so. I think things these things happen everybody. You know you mess up you know people have affairs you know people die off. Well the chief actors died between the episodes. So we had to write a roadmap and so we have a terrific scene. Where his name was Jim Wright. He was an older actor he was nothing but a man which I think was stroke which I a bit smarter than that. Yes. Yes. And and then he played the father in a soap opera and then

as we were preparing to do the second episode he died so we had to work around. All these things happened everybody. Ordinary people. And that's what we're trying to get across is that everybody has personal problems. To. Solve. And so he would've taken in something I have to pull his arm to be social around with didn't he. Well you. Know what you're trying to say I mean I know what you try to say but I don't I don't you try to. Do as well as. Roses. For I try. To see that he took his medicine for. This. I

think this is something that we can talk about. All the time. This is not the time. Place. You know. Make no sense. This can make no sense out of this. Whole thing right. Are you out socializing. I do truly feel I truly feel within me that you. Were negligent when it came to my father. Who knows me because I'm not crazy. I want him to come over here. He can't get over there on Wednesdays. He was up here and everybody had a good time to work. You know when I work I don't know when you work I don't care when you work. You know you're just working

from this site that we play pool here. But why couldn't you why couldn't you play. Because I live here. You know my husband has fallen into it. That's why they have him here. You're left with me now with what concerned about you. Don't you think maybe he could live in your house. He lives here. I want him to come over there. I wanted to stay with us but he said you want to keep it here be tight and fuss and scream at him all the time. Well I have a good friend who told you he didn't tell you that. He didn't tell you that. I know my husband told you that. Did you get it and every time I turn around he found out that he was not your father's babysitter.

You were you were my father's daughter. Would you take. It you want to say something like Do it now. Maybe you know you shouldn't do that. But then. Again. If everybody has these personal problems then it it's something that everyone can relate to. What would make it special why do you think that your project will go well. I think I don't I don't know if it's going to go or not we didn't we didn't really write write it with the market or do what a market in mind. You know I hear people saying what's your target audience. You know we did think about that we would think about it does that work. Do the actors and actresses achieve some kind of satisfaction. Does music the original music work well. Well these are considerations we had in mind we weren't. We had no market in mind. And I think that. You know

as a result we've got an audience that's fine but we didn't we didn't do it with an audience in mind. I think too much. Nowadays done by formula. You know you know it's time that people set up friends and then they study 20th century psychological techniques of almost seducing you know the audience and the consumers into doing their bidding or you know following their trends. We didn't do that. We created this and the public likes it that's fine with us. When Ishmael Reed first appeared on the prince thing critics say things like he say brash angry young man he's controversy all the fish oh re mellowing. I'm a rational man. I'm a wretched old man. I used to be a brash or you know you can't be a prodigy in your 40s. So I don't know if I'm not. But I think you know anybody who talks back and our condition anybody who talks back or speaks up and writes a letter is going to be considered controversial. And so although I try to try to. I think I'm the easiest person

around to get along with I don't know why people would call me controversial or brash. I think it's just a point of view and I think we have a different point of view and I respect other people's points of view. You can't think of an Afro-American writer or an Afro-American student or anybody who's been a school or university who does not know the word by European writers we know European culture. We have ancestors of European. We read books by European authors. Some of our earliest exposure was to European culture but not many of other people and other groups read our work. We read everybody I read Native American or we let a lot of material. This gives me a broader view of our civilization and of the world because the world is here. The world is here we have people from all the world in this country. And what better an opportunity is it. Or would it be to become acquainted with the world and world culture and just. Communicate with people in our own country so we're trying to communicate and we dismiss a viewpoint as controversial or are angry or or raging

we ought to try to pay attention to it and try to see it in more detail and maybe people are trying to say something to us. I think I was in Mexico City and I said the reason we have to talk really. Sometimes we get call strident strident here that's a term they use. We talk loud because nobody's listening. You know sometimes you have to scream because nobody's listening. So I think the people will begin to listen. I see especially a younger generation of people who have been who are part of this revolution that saw black studies we know in university who know a lot more about American culture today than say generations ago or people of my generation. They talk a lot about freedom of expression. What does that mean to you. Well this is just what I said a minute ago is that I think that there are significant points of view that are excluded from the media and the freedom of ideas. That's correct. I look at the newspaper every day I see people saying the same class reading about all issues I don't see and I don't see any other viewpoints I don't see viewpoints about women or you know other large so-called minorities in this country being represented. And I think

the media has an obligation to present those viewpoints. Mary thank you. Thank you.